Curse

lord dragon · Sep 05, 2007, 04:07 PM // 16:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

As for this idea of getting refund on a computer game... get a grip!

I bought the game from anet directly. As for getting any substandard product, I would expect to be able to return it. This is substandard.

Series · Sep 05, 2007, 04:28 PM // 16:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

You cant compare pressing the Q putting over and over again, to earning reputation points in GWEN.

Agreed 100%. In order to earn reputation points, you press C and then space over and over again for hours. This clearly takes more skill as two buttons is harder to manage than one.

lord dragon · Sep 05, 2007, 04:34 PM // 16:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Series

Agreed 100%. In order to earn reputation points, you press C and then space over and over again for hours. This clearly takes more skill as two buttons is harder to manage than one.

Oh man, I will be laughing at that one for hours! ROFLMAO

Diablo™ · Sep 05, 2007, 05:45 PM // 17:45

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Originally Posted by TabascoSauce

...steady increase in the "achievement requirements".

You say that as if it's a bad thing. I see it as more challenges.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TabascoSauce

In the original Prophecies, you could explore the continent for....no benefit but a keen title.

In Factions that has been patched to the new mentality, you could grind kurz/lux for...close to perma +100 armor party wide?

Yeah. That is not a flat line there on "achievement requirements".

And this whole analogy that students have to "pass tests", and the "A" students get through easy and the "C" students have to work harder? Um, what you really mean to say is that "A" students are simply willing to work and work and work at a meaningless game that does not solve world hunger, cancer, or any of the worlds actual real problems, and the "C" students are not willing to put in that work because they almost certainly have better uses for their time.

Sounds the same. Doesn't matter what they're going after, it's the fact that the "C" students keeps coming back for more, yet don't want to put in the effort. They have the option to try the mini-games, explore dungeons, and do anything else they want to do... yet they insist on coming back to the title, yet sit by and whine about how hard it is to reach the top, when there really is no incentive to do so.

If better use of your time is to do something else besides playing guild wars... what's with all the big fuss with trying to get them to lower the ranks?

Quote:

Originally Posted by TabascoSauce

Yeah, doesn't sound so flattering now. Wouldn't it be nice if the game had compelling content that did not feel like grind/work.

It's compelling enough for me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TabascoSauce

Just to set you straight - I have no intention of grinding anything out in this game. The world will continue to turn in its stately fashion (and the milk will still be in the fridge, heh) and you entitlement grinder monkeys can have your entitlement grind with intangible rewards that will go up in a poof of smoke in just a few short years.

If titles don't interest you ... what do you have to worry about?

Quote:

Originally Posted by TabascoSauce

I have better things to do with my time. It saddens me that the game has chosen to turn its back on its root premise of skill > time so thoroughly and quickly, but in the end none of it is real.

This Skill > Time argument is null, because first of all it's not PvP, the guy with a rank 8 can't challenge a rank 4 to some kind of competition while still be able to use those PvE skills. Someone with rank 4 can still easily defeat a rank 8 even if he someone brings Ear Bite....

On the PvE field, we're teammates, not challengers. IF someone brings a powerful skill, it's to help out the team.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TabascoSauce

Just keep that in mind in the emphatic defense openly stated by Lady Lozza and implied by you, where "grinders need rewards or there is no carrot". The rewards are intangible, and (I cannot state this too many times) will go up in a poof of smoke in just a few years.

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

No one lives forever, buddy. After we die, all of our efforts too will eventually disappear in time. It's the time between birth and death that matters to us. I didn't get the title to impress others, I got it to show myself how far I got. Much like a journal... it wouldn't mean anything if I inflate it with false "Legendary" stories of my life... instead I want it to keep track of whatever it is that I've done, how much I've accomplished, how much I've earned... so that it reflects the truth, and that I can remember and be proud.

I don't care if I'm a rank 4 in game or in life, if that's my place, then that's who I am.

If I was worried about getting the bestest best top title out there... the problem is me.

skizdidlyidler · Sep 05, 2007, 05:47 PM // 17:47

ya'll need to quit bitching. Many more people are glad to pay $40 to even see Gwen again. We all thought she died when we saw her ghost in the UW. Many people do enjoy the story line, and are very happy with this expansion. Personally, I love Tyria and the original Prophecies more than either of the other two.

Diablo™ · Sep 05, 2007, 05:54 PM // 17:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zubrowka

I don't go for the titles because I find the whole scheme stupid. I play games to relax and have fun, not to be a part of a virtual rat-race.

One certainly doesn't need grind to play the game. I just dislike the pandering to the grinders. These are the people who suck the vitality out of every MMORPG. If Anet continues to give in to their demands for more "rewards," they will do the same to Guildwars.

I actually agree completely. Except instead of disliking the grinders, I don't care for it. Titles are afterall, just some text under your name. Who wants to do all that work for a couple of text? But there are people who do, and if they want to it's their choice. The end result? Some PvE skills that only monsters will really know how powerful it is... No one's gonna use Ear Bite on me.

I, can go back to doing what I like, clearing dungeons and brass knuckling little people.

Zubrowka · Sep 05, 2007, 05:54 PM // 17:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordakai

Anet has to cater to all people, the casual player and the hardcore.

No, these people are not hardcore. Grinders are extreme softcore. They should go play some virtual pet game, since they treat this like one anyway. "Oh, little kitty, I want you to grow up big and strong!" Grinding is the most unmasculine behavior in the gaming world. In prehistoric times, these guys would be the second half of a hunter-gatherer society. Their whole day they would spend bringing berries back to the cave. And they dreamt not taking down mammoths, but finding safe locations to dig up turnips. No, no, no, these are not hardcore players at all. They are wimps, who like leveling up because they fear losing.

Diablo™ · Sep 05, 2007, 05:58 PM // 17:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zubrowka

No, these people are not hardcore. Grinders are extreme softcore. They should go play some virtual pet game, since they treat this like one anyway. "Oh, little kitty, I want you to grow up big and strong!" Grinding is the most unmasculine behavior in the gaming world. In prehistoric times, these guys would be the second half of a hunter-gatherer society. Their whole day they would spend bringing berries back to the cave. And they dreamt not taking down mammoths, but finding safe locations to dig up turnips. No, no, no, these are not hardcore players at all. They are wimps, who like leveling up because they fear losing.

And they pay good money to play guild wars. I wouldn't worry about these "wimps" and their e-pen.

If one day, these "wimps" can use Ear Bite on me, then I have some problems with Anet.

Lourens · Sep 05, 2007, 06:13 PM // 18:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diablo™

If one day, these "wimps" can use Ear Bite on me, then I have some problems with Anet.

in that case im a wimp to :P like in every game even heroes of might and magic 1st a strong army then overrush the enemy , sound logical doesnt it ?

And dont look down on wimps or i bite ur ear off hehe :P

Diablo™ · Sep 05, 2007, 06:16 PM // 18:16

The man curing cancer for a Nobel Prize is not nearly half has noble as the man curing cancer for the sake of curing cancer.

And that's what title grinders are, slaving out there in the field because they want recognition they feel the world owe them. They pay good money to play the game, so let them be.

The only questions we have to ask ourselves is, "Are we comprimising our integrity for the sake of recognition?" Because when we're doing something we don't want, for something we don't need, we're really just worried about our ego instead of just doing what we love.

Ctb · Sep 05, 2007, 06:20 PM // 18:20

Hmmm... let's see... GW:EN introduced a relatively small expansion to the game environment, a few skills, and some reskinned monsters from other games (or in some cases they didn't even bother to reskin them).

Other than that, you also get:

- The ability to spend obscene amounts of time grinding rep to get flashy game graphics for your avatar so you can prove how little life you have outside the internet

- The ability to spend obscene amounts of time grinding gold or items so you can fill the ultimately pointless HOM with knick knacks

- A wallet that's lighter to the tune of $40

GW:EN is made of fail and rotten tomatoes. I appreciate the effort, but at $40 they could've done a heck of a lot better than just tacking onto the six year old concept of "titles" and made the HOM worthwhile. It's alright, but it's not $40 with of alright.

Mordakai · Sep 05, 2007, 06:44 PM // 18:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ctb

Hmmm... let's see... GW:EN introduced a relatively small expansion to the game environment, a few skills, and some reskinned monsters from other games (or in some cases they didn't even bother to reskin them).

I'm all for serious complaints, but come on! A "few" skills? There are 50 PvE skills alone, much less regular skills. One of the biggest complaints in the past was useless skills, I'd argue that at least half of the PvE skills aren't "useless."

Yes, some reskinned monsters, but also a lot of new ones. (and enhanced graphics to boot).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ctb

Other than that, you also get:

- The ability to spend obscene amounts of time grinding rep to get flashy game graphics for your avatar so you can prove how little life you have outside the internet

Optional.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ctb

- The ability to spend obscene amounts of time grinding gold or items so you can fill the ultimately pointless HOM with knick knacks

Optional.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ctb

GW:EN is made of fail and rotten tomatoes. I appreciate the effort, but at $40 they could've done a heck of a lot better than just tacking onto the six year old concept of "titles" and made the HOM worthwhile. It's alright, but it's not $40 with of alright.

What do people expect? They know what the gameplay is going to be like. The graphics and voice acting are top notch.

So what are the complaints? It's too short? That's kind of like the old lady at the diner: "This food tastes terrible, and the portions are too small."

Darksun · Sep 05, 2007, 07:05 PM // 19:05

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Originally Posted by Mordakai

Optional.

Optional.

But all the "Optional" stuff is where most of the content is! most of the dungeons are "Optional".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordakai

What do people expect?

I think they expect 4/5 of the content they got from prophecies since they spent 4/5 the money...

Rune Ufgood · Sep 05, 2007, 07:10 PM // 19:10

I see everyone's point about griding it out to get a title but your not just getting a title as in just a name under your char. The higher your title the more effective norn,asura,dwarf and VG skills become. It can be a great bonus for you if you have a high enough title. Also the PvE skills they have added can be quite a bit better then some of the other 3 campaigns counter parts, making a warrior that uses tactics to a warrior that only uses strength but still have some defense. This may not be the best example but hopefully you get what I mean.

I've also heard ( and not to start up the rumor mill here but) the more titles you have and the more things you have done in EoTN the more things you get in GW2 not sure if this is true and or what things you will get but this would be nice.

I have found the expansion to be great. I'm on the last quest and still have dungeons, mini games (to get my other heros) and smaller quest. I really didn't buy EoTN to breeze through it but I'm sure there are many that love getting runs and getting power lvl'd me other the other hand love being hooked on guild wars crack. Grinding it out sometimes isn't so bad just as long as you accept it.

The things I would change are.
Add more quests for title points
Add dungeon scrolls (transporting you and your party there)
Add some Elites that can be used in PvP
Add passages to snake dance,travelers vale,tangle root and possibly more. Merging Prophecies and EoTN better.

Diablo™ · Sep 05, 2007, 07:18 PM // 19:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darksun

I think they expect 4/5 of the content they got from prophecies since they spent 4/5 the money...

I wouldn't calculate it as something directly proportional to the scale of the map. Something could be half as big but twice as fun. Otherwise they could've just created a 500 square mile desert valley. I know that's not what you're implying...

There's tons of mini-games in EotN, there weren't any in Prophecies. There were many many dungeons, Prophecies had... Glint's cave. Hall of Monuments, Prophecies doesn't have that. Environments were denser and more intricate. Deeper storyline than Prophecies. Consumables, PvE skills, etc...

EotN has may have a smaller map, but they have more content than Prophecies.

Whether you like these content or not however, is what's going to decide for yourself whether it's worth the money or not. You can't answer that for someone else. Anet can add 50 pounds of stinking turd to EotN if they want, but you can't say it has less content.

Quizzical · Sep 05, 2007, 07:21 PM // 19:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

Trying to compare that to the grind of pressin Q over and over again, is simply moronic. How would pressing Q have any baring on the storyline? surprise, surpise it doesnt!!

How does doing the same quest or clearing the same area for the 17th time in a row have any bearing on the storyline? It doesn't, or at least not any more than pressing the "q" key a zillion times.

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

If you dont like re-playing dungeons or quests, then why are you playing an MMO/RPG that is primarily based around quest, missions and dungeons?

Precisely because the first three campaigns didn't require replaying quests, missions, or anything else more than once on a single character. Just because there are some other games out there that are completely idiotic doesn't mean that Guild Wars should join them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

that is a tiny, tiny amount!

Okay then, replace my example of pressing "q" for eight hours by ten minutes. That's a much tinier amount than it takes to max a GWEN title, don't you think? But is it not still terminally stupid game design?

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

These are the easiest titles to increase in the entire game, and people are complaining about them just because you need them for armor.

Short memory, haven't we? For a partial increase, it's easier to get points toward explorer. To max a title, you don't have to repeat anything for protector.

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

Nothing is forcing you to earn those reputation points in GWEN, its purely choice! In factions you heave to earn certain amounts to continue. In NF you NEED SS points and a certain rank to continue.

In Factions and Nightfall, you do not have to repeat any quest at any time ever to get enough faction to move on. In fact, you can skip some of the quests and still get enough faction to move on. Indeed, in Nightfall you can skip most of the quests and still get enough faction to move on. If doing every single quest in GWEN exactly once were enough to max the effectiveness of pve-only skills, I wouldn't be here arguing about it.

Factions does have Kurzick/Luxon skills which are a horrendous grind to max, and pve-only skills are idiotic there, too. But the Kurzick/Luxon skills aren't that nice, so they don't really unbalance everything. At high rank, some of the GWEN pve-only skills are far stronger than anything comparable without the rank.

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

because you consider certain quests and dungeons to be boring, despite the fact they give you reputation points, that means they equate to grind?

The definition of grind is as simply as just whether you find something boring!!!

Now you're making me quote myself. Please read it this time.

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Originally Posted by Quizzical

Killing a mob once is content. Killing it many times per character is grinding.

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

I find farming ectos and farming gold and standing around in outposts trying to sell stuff and trade to be boring and tedious, so should we completely remove the need for ectos and shards in FOW armor?

This isn't about armor. Let the people who want to dedicate their lives to a game have something shiny to show for it, so long as it doesn't unbalance anything. This is about pve-only skills.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diablo

there really is no incentive to do so.

If that were true, we wouldn't be sitting here arguing. For that matter, if the effectiveness of pve-only skills were capped at rank 4 or so, this wouldn't be an issue.

Ctb · Sep 05, 2007, 07:27 PM // 19:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordakai

Optional.

Optional.

Paying for that part of the game wasn't optional. What's your point? Optional or not, it's not enjoyable for me, and I used my money, not yours, to buy it. Your opinion on the matter has nothing to do with my opinion of the game, so just saying "it's optional" doesn't change anything.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordakai

They know what the gameplay is going to be like.

Mmm, no. I don't remember any press releases coming out saying that a vast amount of the game would revolve around killing everything in the zone to get your rank up with the Norn. I remember them promising an expansion of the story behind Ascalon's residents. I remember them promising dungeons. I remember them promising new areas to explore.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordakai

So what are the complaints?

- The sum duration of the quests and missions is too short for a $40 game
- Too much of the game centers on grinding titles up (title grind is one thing when it's something like Drunkard and it's just for your own personal enjoyment, but now the game mechanics are directly tied to how much time you spend mindlessly clearing instances again and again)
- The expanded explorable area and dungeons is not $40 worth of material
- Frankly, the new heroes are nothing special

In effect, it's a $40 expansion, which is 80% of the cost of a full game, that only expands the actual content of GW by about 25%.

Finally, to your point about the PvE-only skills. They're directly tied to title grind. I'm complaining about title-grind. To wit, it should not require any sort of impressive faculties to combine the two points and come to the conclusion that my titles status is low and, therefore, the effectiveness of my new PvE-only skills is, in fact, sitting quite firmly at "useless".

Guild Wars is fun because it's not just a fire and forget grindfest. I didn't get stupid quests from NPCs telling me to kill 34 Morlocks or bring them 17 Dandelion Seeds. Until now.

Now it's "go kill stuff until your title is Rank X or I won't even talk to you".

F that. I quit WoW and LOTRO and came back to Guild Wars within months for a reason.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rune ufgood

This may not be the best example but hopefully you get what I mean.

Sooooo... if I quit playing the game and just grind in instances for a few weeks... I can play the game better?

No thanks. The whole gripe here is that we don't find repetition for the point of repetition fun and we're not happy to see ANET caving in to the MMO standard and implementing it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rune ufgood

Grinding it out sometimes isn't so bad just as long as you accept it.

Yea, some of us have higher standards. I'm sorry I can't just shut my brain off and pretend I'm a macro and still have fun. Like I said: I quit WoW and LOTRO for a reason: they were boring and pointless.

Don't encourage ANET to go that same route. I don't want to be playing Guildcraft2 in a few years.

Diablo™ · Sep 05, 2007, 07:28 PM // 19:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quizzical

If that were true, we wouldn't be sitting here arguing. For that matter, if the effectiveness of pve-only skills were capped at rank 4 or so, this wouldn't be an issue.

Nothing is forcing you to do this, this is nothing like the sunspear points, the only incentive is yourself, telling yourself you "need this".

Mordakai · Sep 05, 2007, 07:30 PM // 19:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darksun

But all the "Optional" stuff is where most of the content is! most of the dungeons are "Optional".

Technically, the whole game is optional. But you knew that most of the content was Dungeons, it was one of the main selling points: 18 multi-level dungeons!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darksun

I think they expect 4/5 of the content they got from prophecies since they spent 4/5 the money...

I expected the game to be the size of Factions, since that's what I read in a review. Honestly, I haven't finished it yet (been spending too much time getting that damn Black Moa Chick!), so can anyone confirm GWEN is about the same size as Factions?

darktyco · Sep 05, 2007, 07:55 PM // 19:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by TabascoSauce

In Factions that has been patched to the new mentality, you could grind kurz/lux for...close to perma +100 armor party wide?

Yeah. That is not a flat line there on "achievement requirements".

QFT. The only way to say it better would have been to emphasize the hours and hours and hours needed to grind to get that skill to max efficiency (8 seconds.)